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Local Option Class????
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Don Kruse



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 437
Location: Albuquerque

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Local Option Class???? Reply with quote

Still looking to see if there is any interest in a local option class that would combine adult 4 and 2-stroke engines in the effort to get a class with many racers instead of just a few. Could be called the "ADULT SPORTSMAN" with the emphasis on "SPORTSMAN".

DK
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eavenson5



Joined: 04 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some talk of having a return of the 290 class at Kart Kanyon. Not sure how many karts or if they will run IKF or just club nights.
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ted tucholski



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Phoenix

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don, although it's not a final decision yet this is what AKA is trying to create. The 2 cycle will be big carb 3 hole can @ 370 lbs and a big carb 4 hole can @ 400 lbs. I don't know squat about the 4 cycle stuff. It would be really cool if NM and AZ would get on the same page on this one. This will be a Holiday Classic local option race. I know i'm jumping the gun here on this announcement so AKA guys don't shoot me.
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Senior Sportsman at 350lb. might be competative. Perhaps the Superbox with a Jr2 restrictor at 360lbs. I don't feel the excessive weight is nesessary. The Animal on methanol with the gold restrictor at 360lbs., the FH on alcohol at 360lbs. and the LO206 on gas at 360lbs should be close. I think a Senior Sportsman at 360lbs. would get clobbered by the 4-strokes. This would take a day at the track to figure out what gets weights get them close.

Something has to be done to get kart counts up. Three and four karts a race equals limited fun.

DK
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jay0



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don why not find a way to run karts lighter. I have 40lbs on my kart Jayme has 120lbs on it to make the 360lbs in super box.
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is one way to do it Jay. Less weight and horsepower for the small people and more weight with more power for the big people. The IKF OPEN class and UAS does this well. If I remember a pipe Yamaha can compete in OPEN at 300lbs. A Yamaha would be fast at that weight.

We have to find a middle ground that accommodates the majority of racers. It has to be in the center. Unfortunately it is hard to accommodate the big people and the small people. The small people end up with lead all over their kart and the big people, well, they are heavy. I don't think bolting lead all over everyone's kart to bring them up to 390 or 400lbs. is the answer. I think it is dangerous. I weigh 195lbs. and need to add 10lbs. to my kart to get to 362lbs. for the Superbox class. If I weighed 220 I would be 15 over. Not that much to not compete.

It is these differentials in weight that have led to "CLASS EXPLOSION" in karting. It is OK if there is a ton of racers to fill up the classes but when there is a limited number of racers it makes for low kart counts per class and that is no fun. In motocross you don't see them splitting by weight, only by age. I realize karts have less power and are more sensitive to the weight though.

How about this:

330lb. - Stock unrestricted Clone w/header, no rev limit
345 or 350lb. - Yamaha Senior Sportsman
360lb. - Yamaha Superbox w/Jr2 restrictor
360lb. - Stock Briggs LO206 on gas.
360lb. - Stock Briggs FH on alcohol.
360lb. - Stock Animal w/gold plate on alcohol.

Maybe add 10lbs. to everything.

I think it could be made to work so as to attract more people into the sport. Some how some way ASK has to come up with a way to draw people to karting and fill the classes. Maybe it is the clone engines maybe it is a SPORTSMAN class with combined motor/weight/restrictive values. There has to be a way to get all those old chassis collecting dust in garages back out on the track.

DK
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ted tucholski



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you guys are missing the point. The 3 hole can will be 370lbs if you can make that weight. We have 6 or more people over here that would like to race and be competitive. Thats what the 4 hole can and 400lbs is for. Increasing kart counts. Karting doesn't have to be excusively for lite people.
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jay0



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No my point is i have no room for more weight on my kids kart. Her seat has 50lbs bolted to it alone. like you said Don we can run open at 300lbs that takes 60lbs off jaymes kart. but is jayme ready for open as a driver? So now we have yamaha light at 330lbs so i can take off 30lbs. dopping 60 or 30lbs is a lot of weight when picking up or moving a kart.
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ted: I raced IKF Senior Sportsman for several years at 360lbs. and it is a pretty slow class. At our track the fast Jr1 2-strokes were faster than the fastest Senior Sportsman karts. Seat of the pants tells me my Dover flathead is faster too. To determin weights and restrictions will take a day or two at the track comparing times of different setups.

Jay: I believe twelve year olds can handle the twenty horsepower a Yamaha makes. One of the problems with karting is the restricted classes for kids untill they are 16 years old. After the first full year of Jr2 racing they are bored to death out there biting at the bit to go faster.

DK
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ted tucholski



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don, I agree with you on the weights being adjusted. We are going to run the 2 cycles at the weights I have said at AKA. If the 2 cycles get smoked by the 4 cycles then the weights for 2 cycle need to be lowered. Kart counts is what everyone is after. I know how good the motors are that we will be using so the 4 cycles will not be able to run junk and beat us. My first thoughts about weights were 3 hole @360 and 4 hole @ 390.But I would prefer to overweight the 2cycles and adjust down later if we get beat. I would prefer to keep any restrictors about of the equation. Happy Turkey day.
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Dirttracker



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tucson races a combined adult 4 cycle class. It consists of restricted animal, and unrestricted flathead. Same weight, very competitve. Our goal is to have a competitive combined class without the all out expense. If people want more speed, they can move up to adult classes (kt 100, unrestricted animal etc.)This class is intended for the weekend fun racer, not the traveling all or nothing racer. Also instead of making another weekend class for each, which would probably have a small 3 or 4 karts in each. This class could have greater potential for more entries.
People look for classes where they have a chance to win each week. The biggest reason to get out of racing in any class is, being non-competitive.

We did some testing at AKA. We already know 4 cycles can be combined, now we are trying to add 2 cycles with the 4 cycles.
We tested an animal restricted #370 vs. KT 4 hole unrestricted. Is was ok. We then made the KT run at #390. Much better. I would like to have one more test with a KT 3 hole unrestricted and a 4 hole restricted. Next practice. All at #370. At AKA this class is still fast on our momentum track. Also, what works at AKA momentum track may not work at a small on and off the gas track.

Russ Morgan
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice of you guys from Phoenix to chime in. Seems you are trying get kart counts up as well. It will be interesting to see the results of your efforts. Keep in touch with how it goes.

I love the idea of the Briggs LO206 but not so much the clones. Even though the 206 is a great package at a low price I don't see being able to build a Sportsman class around a single type of motor. Working out a formula to have many types of motors seems to be the way to go.

Keep in touch,
Don
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Austin you did real well in the ADULT SPORTSMAN class with your Senior Sportsman. What weight were you at? What was the Adult Flathead at and what was the restricted Animal at? It was a real close race proving an ADULT SPORTSMAN class would work. This all comes back to kart counts and an entry level class that could be gotten into affordable.

DK
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BedRock Racing



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don the Flat head and animal were both at 370.
Doc Twisted Evil
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ab79



Joined: 10 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don, I was about 375, and thats about where we all were. It was an EXTREMELY fun class, very fun, pretty fast, and you can put about any kart out there with any of the three setups. I would love to see this come together out here. I know that we might have to work on the weights a bit, the Flatheads seemed to have a bit of an advantage. It was bumper to bumper, and we were pushing each other and drafting, and it was as fun as the KT-100 in a different way.
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mrg29



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 28
Location: Tucson

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have raced AKA's sportsman class now twice, once with a flathead and once with a restricted animal and I couldnt really tell much of a difference if any in the motors. I dont think any engine really had much of a advantage. When the 2 cycle was ahead of me he was getting me pretty good on the starts but my kart was setup pretty good that day and I was getting through turns 1-2 better then everyone else (my opinion at least) and that is where I was making most of my passes. I dont think the class at AKA at least could get much more competitive then it was. 7 karts at least could have won that race, easily. That combined with so far the "sportsman" driving of it makes it the only class I will run at AKA ever. If they get away from the clean driving I wont run it anymore but right now it is a blast! A class like that would also allow us AZ'ers to come out and play with you since you seem to by 2cycle heavy and we are mostly 4cycle down here. I need to get back to NM someday, it was fun there.
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ab79



Joined: 10 Sep 2007
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Location: Edgewood

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were you flat footing it, I know I was rolling out of it in the center a bit, and had a bit too much grip in turn two off. I think those Maxxis Yellows had a bit too much grip for that track, and we need to work on my Dad's Buller a bit. I now we made a lot of adjustments at home to get it ready and it was the best I've ever had it at.
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mrg29



Joined: 22 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I wasnt flatfooting it, I had to let off for a bit.
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Don Kruse



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 437
Location: Albuquerque

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out these videos about the Briggs LO206 motors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW0tGrErv_Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZSygp_CpVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2iDgU2RF3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5s7HbJ-6H8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Nd1Ax63Uw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc3dGHXHiZA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXeyKhblJA&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nLIAKsZgwY&feature=related

How slow can a Yamaha go?

DK
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how about something like this?

Four Strokers
370lb. - Flathead Stocker
370lb. - Animal w/Gold Restrictor
300lb. - HF Greyhound w/Pipe, muffler, K&N, no limiter, un-restr.
340lb. - HF Greyhound built as AKRA Box Stock
360lb. - HF Greyhound built as AKRA Superbox

Yamaha Kt100's
320lb. - WB55 carb and 4-hole can
340lb. - WB3A, blue restrictor and 3-hole can
370lb. - WB3A, 3-hole can
390lb. - Superbox w/blue restrictor
410lb. - Superbox un-restricted

ONE CLASS, MANY RACERS = MO FUN!!!!!!!!!

As slow as these are they wouldn't fatigue you as much so it would be fun to have 30 lap main. Now that would be fun.

DK
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Dirttracker



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Don,

You will definetly have to do some testing with all those motor options.

The stock HF motor after testing at AKA was about 3/4 sec. slower than a restricted animal @#370. Not sure if #70 cut could still keep up. What adult can get there weight down to #300.

One reason why we are starting a stock Clone alone class here. I don't think there is any cheaper way of going racing, for anyone with any style (sprint or speedway chassis) or age of kart, than a clone class. If they get board, which I doubt, close - competitive racing, They can move up to a faster class.

Another reason to keep weights somewhat equal: A 410# kart can move a #300 pretty easy without even trying. It would take a pretty go shot to reverse this this scenerio. Not that moving is aloud, but #410 could make it not look like a move.

Also, if you were going to combine this with adults and JR's running together. Alot of karts and traffic. A 30 year old rookie, still has more driving experience than a 13 year old.

Russ
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HEADWRENCH80



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject: Clones Reply with quote

This is the way we do it in Cruces. Harbor freight blue out of the box change the throttle and race. 8 karts so far and growing fast. They cost 99.00 on sale run 2 tenths slower than any other class but different winners every time. Set up is the key because some of the karts running are 80s model margay straight up and still compete and win. A racer down here can buy a kart and a motor and be racing for as little as 500.00. We have 2 more comig in the next 2 races. by next year we should have at least 15.
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny: Got your message, to late to call.

For three months I have been preaching less classes with larger fields. The IKF class structure promotes more classes with few racers per class. The IKF does allow clubs like ASK to structure classes that meet their needs through the Local Option. We have used it with NM Super Box and Super Jr. II. Both good solutions for ASK and the region. Less classes with more racers per class is better all the way around. More competition, more excitement and faster shows. I even believe it would go a long way to help growing the clubs ranks.

ASK needs maybe three adult classes: Adult Sportsman, Yamaha Heavy and Open. The Jr. Classes should only have heavy classes and all classes with less than three karts should tag another class.

Adult Sportsman should include all the restricted classes. Open should included everything other than Yamaha Heavy and Yamaha Heavy should tag the field if there are only two or one. With open using UAS rules two and four strokes can compete. It could only help the kart counts that ASK so desperately needs.

It would be nice to have more communication regarding this yea or nay. I just can't believe people have that much fun racing with two or three racers.

DK

DK
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chill



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don,

I totally agree with you, less classes with larger fields....more competition with finishing earlier on race nights. I am willing to gather suggestions about what classes that the racers think makes most sence. After hearing from all of the club members about their class concerns we can have an educated vote at the club meeting. I will also look at class structures from Aztec, Las Cruces, Phoenix, and Tucson in an attempt to unify class structure in the Southwest. Please take in account that there are 2 stroke and 4 stroke classes, light-heavy, etc. and that we run IKF rules and classes but we do have local option classes. This is for KART classes only!


Last years classes that were raced based on 2009 points standings :

Kid Kart (3 drivers 1 club member)
Jr. I 2 cycle Light (5 drivers 4 club members)
Jr. I 4 Cycle Light (9 drivers 0 club members)
Jr. I Briggs Animal Medium (1 driver 0 Club member)
Jr. II 2cycle heavy (8 drivers 5 club members)
Jr. II Briggs Animal Medium (2 drivers 1 club member)
Super Jr. II (3 drivers 3 club members)
Briggs Animal Heavy Adult (1driver 0 club member)
Stock heavy Adult (6 drivers 2 club members)
NM Superbox Adult (10 drivers 5 club members)
Yamaha Heavy (7 drivers2 club members)
Open (12 drivers 4 club members)

Please email me with your concerns and I will try to sort this out before our first club meeting February 23rd-8:00 PM @ Albuquerque Indoor Karting 5110 Copper NE
Thanks,
Charley
hill2353@msn.com
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ab79



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its way too late to start forming new classes. About 50 days ago would have made sense, but all of the speculation is a bit late. Test and tune in three weeks or so. Not sure that people are going to want to scramble to order cans, pipes, motors, etc. to get new classes together. It would have been nice, but I dont see it happening. It would be a club thing only anyway.
We can't start changing everything now, if we want new members, we cant start jumbling everything up. We need defined classes, and can't start telling everybody what setup they need right before the race. Look at the IKF rule book for classes. I know we want a good kart count, but now is not the time to start more classes if we already have people setup for other classes. We will being going backwards not forward. We'll end up with even more classes, when some of us are going to run IKF National classes, and others are going to run these new classes. This is why I stressed a meeting over a month ago. I knew that we would want to start making last minute decisions, that will hurt people trying to get stuff setup.
Personally, if we start making all of these combined classes, it's going to hurt my program for IKF Nationals.
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chill



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats one suggestion to keep the same classes as last year....Thanks AB79 very well stated and well thought out!
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ab79



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, we can't get rid of any classes, so keeping the same classes is not an option.
All I'm saying is that the ASK board's window of opprotunity to start new classes in an effort to reduce classes, and increase class participation has been closed for a while. Too much was left gray for too long, and in order to keep people interested we need to keep options low. Were not like Phoenix where every new class they put together they get 6 new karts to go race in it.

In & Out Burger has 3 options on the menu.
McDonalds has about 60 options on the menu.
Which do you like better?

We need to get the speculation out of the way. There are people who read this, who after awhile, lose interest in it all and move on too something else.
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ab79



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, please refer to rules 100.1.1, 110.1.1 through 110.1.2, 402, 403, and 850 in your 2010 IKF rule book.
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Don Kruse



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most important is rule 110.2.1 Local Option Classes.

Classes listed in the current Grand National schedule or section 850 Regional class list may be raced at any event.

This is the tool a club can use to make the format work for the local racing needs. It is not the IKF's intent to dictate compliance with their tech manual. It is a guide only.

DK
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karter43



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Clones Reply with quote

HEADWRENCH80 wrote:
This is the way we do it in Cruces. Harbor freight blue out of the box change the throttle and race. 8 karts so far and growing fast. They cost 99.00 on sale run 2 tenths slower than any other class but different winners every time. Set up is the key because some of the karts running are 80s model margay straight up and still compete and win. A racer down here can buy a kart and a motor and be racing for as little as 500.00. We have 2 more comig in the next 2 races. by next year we should have at least 15.


There is a coupon in fridays Journal $99.99

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?itemnumber=66014[url]
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